NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

RE: NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

haricane — Thu, 12 Oct 2023 18:41:23 GMT

Hi Hugh,

I have since resolved the issue with a 47uf cap.

thanks for the whitepaper, it will surely be useful for me in the future.

RE: NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

hmolesworth — Mon, 09 Oct 2023 15:22:19 GMT

Hopefully you are having some luck; meanwhile here is a Nordic white paper about the use of ceramic capacitors and the effective capacitance of the same with some specific references to the nRF52840 which may be of use: nwp_030

RE: NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

haricane — Wed, 02 Aug 2023 17:47:45 GMT

Hello Hugh,

thank you very much for the detailed info. I have increased my capacitor size to 47 + 47 uf and I'm running some tests now. I earlier had only 4.7uf. I think your analogy of using the cr2023 as a trickle charger is great. Will drop you an update later . Thanks again.

RE: NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

hmolesworth — Mon, 31 Jul 2023 19:16:00 GMT

Stored charge Q is the ticket; Q=CV so either use lot of (ultra low-leakage = ceramic) capacitance C or use a high voltage V or better still do both. The current surges on the coin cell are predictable, typically during BLE transmission but also (say) for flashing an LED. The CR2032 pair in parallel are giving a useable voltage of typically between 2.4 and 3.4 volts but due to the high internal impedance at low temperatures or near end-of-life cannot source anything like the pulse transmission current required. The nRF52810 can PWM a voltage doubler or tripler to raise the voltage V just prior to a high-current event. Ceramic capacitors allow this high voltage to be maintained for longish periods but the voltage rating on ceramics has to be at least 2 x the maximum voltage to get the full capacitance value. High leakage Tantalum capacitors don't have that voltage rating problem, but can only be used as charge storage devices for short periods due to the extremely high leakage current. What is a high voltage V? Without an external DC-DC it is limited to the max input voltage the nRF52810 DC-DC can handle, 3.6V, but with an external DC-DC regulator much higher voltages can be used, say 5 or 6 volts or more.

Naturally using an external DC-DC means a buck-boost regulator can be used instead to boost the voltage without the nuisance of having to PWM a voltage doubler, although now the maximum voltage is that the nRF52810 DC-DC can handle, 3.6 volts, or (safer) a tad less such 3.55V. 150uF at 3.5 volts is much better than the same capacitance at 2.4 volts. The coin cells should be treated as a trickle charger to the true power source, which is the capacitors. 150uF (6.3V rated ceramics passable or better 10V ceramics) is a starting point; better to use a lot more. The nRF52810 DC-DC is a lot more efficient at 3.55V than 2.4V and less likely to be susceptible to a brown-out.

Should there be other high-discharge components which need to be managed, typically those not subject to a brown-out, isolate the nRF52810 supply with an ideal schottky diode such that the nRF52810 storage capacitors are not drained by those other components. Ensure the buck-boost DC-DC does not drain backwards or supply other stuff; if it does add an ideal diode in that path as well. A good ideal diode for this purpose is the Maxim MAX40203 max40203.html

RE: NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

haricane — Mon, 31 Jul 2023 18:31:55 GMT

Hi Johnathan,

Thanks for the followup.

I will run some tests where we sample the supply voltage over 48 hours.

Regarding your questions, we are using the DCDC. Its the Laird BL651 which has the DCDC circuitry built in.

I am experimenting with different capacitance values.

Kind regards,

Hari

RE: NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

JONATHAN LL — Fri, 28 Jul 2023 15:15:40 GMT

[quote user="haricane"] Does the NRF power profiler support logging over a long duration, such as 48 hours?[/quote]

It could, it is possible to adjust the "resolution" of the sampling so with a low sampling rate you will be able to extend the time your are sampling.

So just adjust it to cover 48hours

What circuit configuration are you using ? There is a small difference in efficiency with DCDC and without depending on the voltage. So the higher the voltage the more efficient the DCDC configuration is, but there is a voltage range\level where the LDO(no DCDC) is just as efficient if not a small amount more efficient.

[quote user="haricane"]Also, could you please recommend a capacitor size for such an application. [/quote]

Low ESR caps are the way to go but for size it can be hard to just say a number, the size could depend on the current consumption during the critical stage where the device sizes to function as intended. I am not sure what the typical BOR current draw is, but I suspect it will depend on the circuit configuration.

Also, some SoC's will differ in how low the voltage can be before there is a brown out. There will be some variance there as well so not all cells will stop working at the same voltage.

Regards,
Jonathan

RE: NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

haricane — Tue, 25 Jul 2023 18:04:40 GMT

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for getting back. I am mainly looking for best practices that Nordic Semi can recommend for operation of the NRF52 in low temperatures when powered by a coin cell battery. So perhaps if you can share any insights from your internal testing using coin cell batteries that would be appreciated.

I will purchase a NRF power profiler kit try to log the voltage during the test. Does the NRF power profiler support logging over a long duration, such as 48 hours?

I am using a murata cr2032. Datasheet says it can operate down to -30deg C. At a steady 200ua draw the battery is spec'd to last 900 hours in -10 deg C.

Also, could you please recommend a capacitor size for such an application.

And, in the event of a brownout, what is the brownout current consumption of the NRF52810.

Kind regards,

Hari

RE: NRF52810 using CR2032 in freezing temps

JONATHAN LL — Tue, 25 Jul 2023 11:54:32 GMT

Hi Hari,

We don't know what all our customers do with their products and what temperature range they will be operating in and if we did am am not sure we would share all the info on how many is successful and what they are doing to be successful in X and Y situations/use cases.

[quote user=""]I've tested 8 tags and they all fail in the freezer in 2 days.[/quote]

Are you able to log the voltage during this test? to confirm what is happening.

What does the datasheet of the CR2032 batteries say on operating range?

Regards,
Jonathan